Curse

Smarty · Jun 21, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

If you want to play a non-min/maxed character in GW, either for roleplaying reasons or just for fun, you really do need to either go it alone or join a guild with like-minded individuals, or learn to put up with the abuse. Like it or not the majority of players are min/maxers who want to get the job done in the fastest, most efficient way possible and will not tolerate "sub-par" builds as using them means the job gets done slower or not done at all.

My problem with build discrimination isn't that it happens, it's the way people deal with it when they see a sub-par build pinged. A simple "sry not what I'm looking for" before kicking someone if you can't be bothered to help them improve their build is much better than "lol noob", or "why do you have X skill?" if they've got something like mending on the bar so you can find out what they were trying to achieve and suggest a better skill for the purpose.

Random anecdote of the day, for my fellow build discriminators: I was in the same pug party as a wammo in Dunes of Despair the other day and my heart sank when I saw him using mending in the mission. Much to my surprise he did a damn good job of tanking and that was one of the best runs of the evening. Sometimes it's true that it's the player and not the build that counts.

DrHobo · Jun 21, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

RPG != CORPG (or MMORPG)

With emphasis on the first 2 (or 3) letters.

It's still a game. And a game is supposed to be fun. It's not like you have to optimize every single thing you do here. That'd be like a second job, and I sure as hell don't want that. I think the OP is entitled to making his/her own builds as he paid for the game just as everyone else did. So he should be able to have fun. IMO, players who whine endlessly about an experimantal build need to loosen up, and big time. I mean, c'mon calling someone a c0cksucker because he used mending? As I said, it's just a game.

Another thing: Random Arena is called RANDOM for a reason. If you want all your party members to have "flawless" builds, play TA, GvG, HA, whatever. Or play PvE with guild mates etc.

kousei · Jun 21, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Honestly there are A LOT of builds that work extremely well outside of the "accepted meta". There just isn't enough people in GW's willing to let people play them anymore... Everyone's turned into build of the week freaks... If it's not on PvX, it's not acceptable anymore.

Heroes didn't kill GW pug'n... "accepted meta only" attitudes did...

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 21, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kousei

Honestly there are A LOT of builds that work extremely well outside of the "accepted meta". There just isn't enough people in GW's willing to let people play them anymore... Everyone's turned into build of the week freaks... If it's not on PvX, it's not acceptable anymore.

Heroes didn't kill GW pug'n... "accepted meta only" attitudes did...

And yet another thumb up <3

Buster · Jun 21, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Goddamnit, the Mending/Dolyak Signet Warrior is a good build, k?

I was thinking Healing Sig+ Frenzy spam build Urgoz farm runs.

Gun Pierson · Jun 21, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

wiki explenation for the word 'team':

A team comprises a group of people or animals linked in a common purpose. Teams are especially appropriate for conducting tasks that are high in complexity and have many interdependent subtasks.

A group in itself does not necessarily constitute a team. Teams normally have members with complementary skills and generate synergy through a coordinated effort which allows each member to maximize his or her strengths and minimize his or her weaknesses.

The OP looks like a group player, but he's not a team player. If such a player ends up in a synergy team, they will kick him if he refuses to adjust to the team. It's common sense. Luckily we have heroes and henchies in GW so you can create your own group. You can even form your own guild with group players or team players.

You can't expect a team to adjust to you, that's selfish behaviour. They have a plan and want to execute it. If you want to be part of that plan is totally up to you, but it requires some flexibility. Both the team player and group player is here to have a fun gaming experience so I find the 'it's just a game' argument pretty weak.

Kendel · Jun 21, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

That's what I do, and the reason I keep being the last one dying when I have bad luck with pugs... and sometimes the only one not dying.

I experiment when I'm with H/H. And use what works for me when joining PUGS, and ask other people's builds to modify mine depending on what they have and what I expect in the areas we are going to face.

I can't imagine just getting a build from a site or given by a player and using that without any further considerations.

Really? Then i hope i never have the misfortune of playing with someone so selfish as you. People who ping 1 build and use another are so far below people who demand you run wiki builds its not even funny.

Still Number One · Jun 22, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

And yet another thumb up <3

You have a bad habit of ignoring those opposed to your opinion and only thinking people who are on your side are correct don't you?

This is the post you should be giving a thumbs up to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Here's the thing with this whole thread.

Build experimentation can be an excellent thing. It is due to build experimentation that we have the builds we do today. I am all for and encourage people to have an idea of what they want to do and how they want to do it. Many very creative people have played this game and came up with some builds that synergize very well together and accomplish everything that is called for in the build. Many of the most popular builds we have today in both PvE and PvP have come from build experimentation because of nerfs/buffs/new ideas/countering heavily used builds.

The fact that if you are wanting to experiment and run your own bars, that's fine. It is on your time and you're free to do whatever the hell you want to on your own time. Sabway, Discordway, etc. have all been discovered by players experimenting with builds on their own time which helped the community and players as a whole.

What you do need to realize is that it was solely their own time, and not the time of others. When you agree to join a pug or guest group, than you should have the courtesy to not experiment and not adjust as you see fit to use others time in a manner that they do not see fit. You are not the only one in that group. If the common consensus of that group is that you run what is considered a "Cookie Cutter" or "Meta" build, than that's what you should have the decency to run.

The "Cookie cutter" or "Meta" builds we have now are there for a reason. Most of the build experimentation has already been done, countless times I might add. The builds we currently have and are accepted as "meta" builds have all been adapted and updated to the most current variant that accomplishes a goal for the team. Taking one piece of the team out and replacing it with a less effective piece only hinders the team and creates unnecessary tension in that team. Just because you want to be unique, or a liar if you are one to ping one build and use another, doesn't mean that you automatically know whats best for the other players involved in the team of people that you are joining. If you want to be unique and run whatever you want, make your own groups or play with friends, but at least have the courtesy to run the bar asked of you if it is whats going to benefit the team the most. By running whatever you want too or joining a team and having absolutely no intention or changing your bar or being flexible to the teams needs, than you are just as selfish as the players who are being rude/arrogant/ignorant that you are complaining about in the first place.

You really are just showing how selfish you truly are by making a thread to complain about something you dislike, and when someone gives you a perfect reason why you have absolutely no right to be complaining about it, you completely ignore it.

Yea people should be a bit nicer to you when you ping your dumb build to them, but by no means should they automatically let you run it. By saying that they should let you use whatever build you want, you are showing a worse sense of sportsmanship than they are. It is not all about you when you play with other players. You do what the team wants or you play alone. Test your little builds on your own time. Don't waste the time of others.

Hell you even said in your post you joined their group and just for laughs wanted to run a dumb build. When you play with complete strangers, you don't have the right to do things just for laughs. That would be like saying, I'm going to go solo everything this way while you guys go that way because I think it will be funny. You do what the team wants and you put your best effort forward to help them succeed. People don't want to deal with your childish antics because you want to have fun at their expense. If you wanna goof off, do it on your own time.

Alleji · Jun 22, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

OP: Yes, you're bad.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 22, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

You have a bad habit of ignoring those opposed to your opinion and only thinking people who are on your side are correct don't you?
This is the post you should be giving a thumbs up to:

You really are just showing how selfish you truly are by making a thread to complain about something you dislike, and when someone gives you a perfect reason why you have absolutely no right to be complaining about it, you completely ignore it.

Yea people should be a bit nicer to you when you ping your dumb build to them, but by no means should they automatically let you run it. By saying that they should let you use whatever build you want, you are showing a worse sense of sportsmanship than they are. It is not all about you when you play with other players. You do what the team wants or you play alone. Test your little builds on your own time. Don't waste the time of others.

Hell you even said in your post you joined their group and just for laughs wanted to run a dumb build. When you play with complete strangers, you don't have the right to do things just for laughs. That would be like saying, I'm going to go solo everything this way while you guys go that way because I think it will be funny. You do what the team wants and you put your best effort forward to help them succeed. People don't want to deal with your childish antics because you want to have fun at their expense. If you wanna goof off, do it on your own time.

1: Why would I go an give a thumbs up to something I don't agree with? Don't think that just because people give me a reason I have to agree with that. Maybe I don't think it's a valid reason or maybe I don't think it's reason enough. Don't say I ignore posts, because I don't, I don't have the time to reply to every single post either though. When I make those thumbs up comments it's because they actually hit a spot of my argumentation.

2: When did I ever say that people should automatically let me run my "dumb build"? I actually said somewhere that I like constructive criticism and that I welcome suggestions for changing my build. The whole problem in this thread is that when people critizise me they do it in an insultive way. I'm not a selfish person, you just misunderstood my whole point in this.

3: Dumb build? So you think that I would actually use a dumb build when in a pug? It's not like I'm actually trying to get myself killed out there. I make a build that I think is good and because I think it will work in that specific area. Of course my builds aren't perfect, but I don't actually make them to be useless. Don't just asume from what you didn't read that I want my team to fail because I'm not a bad guy. I don't use people as guinea pigs. I like to experiment sure, but I don't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing experiment at the cost of other people. I've carefully considered my builds and I actually ASK people for suggestions before I go in. The problem is simply the tone of the responses. How the freaking hell can that be selfish?

zwei2stein · Jun 22, 2009, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

Random anecdote of the day, for my fellow build discriminators: I was in the same pug party as a wammo in Dunes of Despair the other day and my heart sank when I saw him using mending in the mission. Much to my surprise he did a damn good job of tanking and that was one of the best runs of the evening. Sometimes it's true that it's the player and not the build that counts.

We have all seen something like this happen.

But it makes one wonder: If he excels with bars where he wasted skill slots, how much better he would be with full bar ...

Selket · Jun 22, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

I've carefully considered my builds and I actually ASK people for suggestions before I go in. The problem is simply the tone of the responses. How the freaking hell can that be selfish?

People don't respond to you well simply because you lack the mental capacity to understand why mending and other skills you use are bad.

Why should I waste time trying to help or argue with people who clearly won't understand it? There's absolutely no benefit when I can just as easily kick you and take a hero who can actually play the game with a moderate degree of skill, especially when compared to an idiot who can't even make a proper skill bar, let alone play one.

Zinger314 · Jun 22, 2009, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

2: When did I ever say that people should automatically let me run my "dumb build"? I actually said somewhere that I like constructive criticism and that I welcome suggestions for changing my build. The whole problem in this thread is that when people critizise me they do it in an insultive way. I'm not a selfish person, you just misunderstood my whole point in this.

3: Dumb build? So you think that I would actually use a dumb build when in a pug? It's not like I'm actually trying to get myself killed out there. I make a build that I think is good and because I think it will work in that specific area. Of course my builds aren't perfect, but I don't actually make them to be useless. Don't just asume from what you didn't read that I want my team to fail because I'm not a bad guy. I don't use people as guinea pigs. I like to experiment sure, but I don't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing experiment at the cost of other people. I've carefully considered my builds and I actually ASK people for suggestions before I go in. The problem is simply the tone of the responses. How the freaking hell can that be selfish?

Then how come you don't want to post your builds in this thread?

maxxfury · Jun 22, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Then how come you don't want to post your builds in this thread?

possibily the same reason as when you ask a pug to ping their bar the reply is "no its a secret awesome build!" ?
which usually turns out to be the biggest crapfest.

Like the warrior/ranger with pindown, a pet and rampage, i had the pleasure of letting go from my last ab group for refusing to ping his secret build,

Then seeing him in "AWESOME action" in another less picky team

Ghost Omel · Jun 22, 2009, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Even though i dont like rudeness and disrespect and understand you you completely... But you also must understand that players (most) play the game to WIn and PWNTHATDUNGUN typething instead of enjoying the game (Yes winning=/= enjoying all the time). When i personaly for PuGs i alwasy ask to ping builds.. no not to check whetther the build is AWESUM but to see what persons like to run.. and their imagination.. well i usualy let in horrible player into the guild -_-.. anything he can do can be outhealed or outproted by the heroes or others on the team.... When it comes to people i know i let them run whatever they want =)

Shadowhaze · Jun 22, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

I tried mending on my war when I first started it. I don't even remember the last time I used that on my war now.

It takes time to get used to a class and find out what skills work and which ones do not. If you've found a build that works and is effective for you though, by all means use it.

People who give constructive criticism are an asset to the game. Those who call people a "noob" and harrass people need to quit the game.

I've been in groups where the leader was totally clueless. So it depends on the person who is leader. Not all leaders have knowledge of all professions/skills.

And yes, as someone said, it can be the player that counts and not the build.

~And a late edit so I don't have to post again here...
lol at people bragging about being good at... *drum roll* ...a game.

Hanok Odbrook · Jun 22, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

We have all seen something like this happen.

But it makes one wonder: If he excels with bars where he wasted skill slots, how much better he would be with full bar ...

The real question is - would he even be playing? Perhaps he is playing this particular build for fun, and running a better/full bar was not as fun. So the question is moot (we can only speculate anyway as we have no idea why he was running the build to begin with).

But anyway:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yichi

The "Cookie cutter" or "Meta" builds we have now are there for a reason. Most of the build experimentation has already been done, countless times I might add. The builds we currently have and are accepted as "meta" builds have all been adapted and updated to the most current variant that accomplishes a goal for the team. Taking one piece of the team out and replacing it with a less effective piece only hinders the team and creates unnecessary tension in that team. Just because you want to be unique, or a liar if you are one to ping one build and use another, doesn't mean that you automatically know whats best for the other players involved in the team of people that you are joining. If you want to be unique and run whatever you want, make your own groups or play with friends, but at least have the courtesy to run the bar asked of you if it is whats going to benefit the team the most. By running whatever you want too or joining a team and having absolutely no intention or changing your bar or being flexible to the teams needs, than you are just as selfish as the players who are being rude/arrogant/ignorant that you are complaining about in the first place.

Then why was UB nerfed? Why are people screaming for a nerf to PermaSin? If these are the most effective and efficient ways to accomplish the goal, then there's no need for any nerfing as these were/are the most effective builds in the game and every team should be running them.

Oh ... what's that you say? OPed? Couldn't group (i.e. find a team to accomplish the goal in an enjoyable (*fun*) way)? Oh, I get it, only certain metas are allowed. That's ... not ... confusing ... at all.

Hanok Odbrook

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 22, 2009, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Then how come you don't want to post your builds in this thread?

Well... mostly because I suck at using these forums :P So I don't know how to put in those build pictures and such XD I can tell you my builds though, or at least some of them, the two I mentioned in the start was the following:

(Without runes) 12 axe mastery, 9 tactics, 9 strength.
1) Asura Scan (at 10 asura)
2) Soldier's Stance
3) "I am Unstoppable" (at 10 norn)
4) Watch Yourself
5) Healing Signet
6) some res, at that time just a res signet
7) Dismember
8) Penetrating Blow

the other one:
(without runes) 10 axe mastery, 11 strength, 10 healing prayers
1) Mending
2) Feel no Pain (at 10 norn)
3) Healing Hands
4) Endure Pain
5) Great Dwarf Armor (at 10 Dwarf)
6) some res, in that case Rebirth
7) "I am unstoppable" (at 10 norn)
8) Sprint

To that Selket guy earlier: That's exactly the kind of Attitude I'm talking about. I mean seriously what makes you think you are better than me? I've finished Urgoz on HM with a 3-man team, I'm legendary Vanquisher, have played the game for 4 years and I've H/H'ed Duncan's, any other dungeon and Frostmaws on HM. I don't see how you can simply look at someones build and then judge him as a guy who "Can not play the game".

Selket · Jun 22, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

To that Selket girl earlier: That's exactly the kind of Attitude I'm talking about. I mean seriously what makes you think you are better than me? I've finished Urgoz on HM with a 3-man team, I'm legendary Vanquisher, have played the game for 4 years and I've H/H'ed Duncan's, any other dungeon and Frostmaws on HM. I don't see how you can simply look at someones build and then judge him as a guy who "Can not play the game".

You've done pve that so many other people have? Nice. So have I, and I did it the day it came out while most people were struggling, including the boring elite stuff. I've am/was the leader of the #1 Korean guild (until it dropped off the ladder for inactivity) and I also have tonnes of adoring fans on and off this forum, for various reasons. I've been mentioned on gw.com before by Java for being an excellent Hero Battles player, at the point when I played Hero Battles and have been constantly considered "the greatest toomz assassin of all time". I can call effective strategy, cyber with various eboys/toys, and press buttons simultaneously.

I'm sure some of this gives me the right to assume that someone who makes builds without any damage in them and then has the audacity to go, "Y NO 1 WANT PLAY W/ ME IM RLY GUD????" is bad.

Kattar · Jun 22, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

This is why we can't have nice things.